#160: Scaling Land Business
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The Richer Geek is coming back to you and we are proud to introduce the land geek. We've had this guy on before. He's the pre-eminent Person for selling raw undeveloped land. His name is Mark Podolski. He is considered the country's most trusted foremost authority on buying, and selling that raw, undeveloped land. And today we're going to discuss his journey into why he does it, why he sells it, why he leases it, and why raw land compared to other types of land. He's been doing this for over 20 years. He has a company Frontier Equity Properties, which is an A-plus-rated BBB real estate company.
In this episode, we’re discussing…
[2:19] His background
Mark Podolski introduces himself and talks about his transition from a corporate job to full-time raw land investing.
Highlights the success of his initial land transactions and how it led him to pursue land investing full-time.
[4:21] Cash flow strategy
Explains the process of buying raw land, often from financially distressed sellers, and selling it quickly for a profit.
He discusses the cash flow model, where he asks for a down payment and sets up monthly payments to create passive income.
[10:02] Mitigating Risks
Emphasizes the importance of due diligence to avoid overpaying and mitigate risks in the raw land business.
Highlights the avoidance of areas with potential environmental issues or Superfund sites.
[13:02] Diversification and Creative Land Use
Encourages creative approaches to land use, such as partnerships with tiny home manufacturers, ventures, or recreational uses.
Advises diversification in markets and exploring opportunities in up-and-coming areas.
[15:46] Automation Tools
Shares essential tools like LGPass.com and GeekPay.io for automation in land investing.
Recommends using tools like Airtable and Zapier for operational efficiency and marketing.
[17:35] Finding Buyers
Discusses marketing strategies, including targeting neighbors, using platforms like Craigslist and Facebook, and leveraging specialized land websites.
Encourages leveraging existing buyer lists for successful transactions.
[22:17] The Land Geek Website and Resources
Invites listeners to explore The Land Geek website, offering free resources like a wholesaling course and a book called "Dirt Rich."
Outlines different learning options, from DIY courses to one-on-one coaching and done-for-you solutions.
[25:50] Working with The Land Geek
Describes various ways individuals can work with The Land Geek based on their time and capital, including flight school, one-on-one coaching, and done-for-you solutions.
Encourages interested accredited investors to reach out directly for more information.
[29:06] Connecting with Mark Podolski
Instruct listeners to find more information by Googling "The Land Geek" or "Mark Podolski."
Invites them to connect on LinkedIn and reach out via email for specific inquiries.
Resources from Mark
LinkedIn | Facebook | Twitter | YouTube
Resources from Mike and Nichole
Gateway Private Equity Group | Real Estate Content Marketing: Best Ideas For 6 Real Estate Niches - (reiwords.com)
+ Read the transcript
Mike Stohler
What if you could be doing something smarter with your money that creates income. Now, if you're wanting to get ahead financially, and enjoy greater freedom of choice, if you want a comfortable retirement, and you know you'll have more choices, if you can do more with your money. Now, if you've wondered who else is creating ways to make their money work for them, and you want actionable ideas, with honest pros and cons, and no fluff. Welcome to the Richard geek podcast where you here helping people find creative ways to build wealth and financial freedom. I'm Mike stohler. And in this podcast, you'll hear from others who are already doing these things and learn how you can ever be everybody the Richard geek is coming back to you and we are proud to introduce the land geek. We've had this guy on before. He's the pre Eminent Persons for selling raw undeveloped land. His name is Mark Podolski. He is considered the country's most trusted foremost authority on buying, selling that raw, undeveloped land. And today we're going to discuss his journey into the world of why he does it, why he sells it, why he leases it, and why raw land compared to other types of land. He's been doing this. Oh my gosh, he's got 5000 unique transitions over 20 years. And he has a company frontier equity properties, which is an A plus rated BBB real estate company. How're you doing? Mark?
Mark Podolsky
Michael stohler. So good to see you again, brother.
Mike Stohler
Absolutely. You know, it's land always intrigues me because I've had some other type of land people and some of them do entitlements. Some of them do other different things and some sell, you know, the land some sell it and put the services in some development. Talk to us a little bit number one in case people don't remember your podcast from before. Give us a little bit of history about your background.
Mark Podolsky
Sure. So if we rewind the tape to 2000 I was a miserable micromanaged, 45 minute commute to work and back investment banker specializing in mergers and acquisitions with private equity groups. And Mike, it got so bad for me. I wouldn't get the Sunday blues, anticipating Monday coming around, I get the Friday blues, anticipating the weekend going by really fast, and having to be back at work on Monday. So my firm hires this guy. And he's telling me that as a side hustle, he's buying up raw land, pennies on the dollar. He's flipping it online, and he's making a 300% return on his money. And I'm looking at companies all day long. And a great company great has 15% EBIT, da margins or free cash flow, average company's 10%. And I'm looking companies all day long, less than 10%. So of course, I don't believe him. So I've got three grand saved up for car repairs, I go to New Mexico with them. I do exactly what he tells me to do. I buy 10 Half Acre parcels, an average price of $300 each. I flipped them online. They all sell for an average price of $1,200. Each 3% It worked. So I took all that money with another auction. And this is an Arizona which is where I live. And again, it's 2000 There is no one in the room. Now buying lots and acreage for nothing. And I made over $90,000 Just on selling all that land at that from an auction. So I go to my wife, and she's pregnant at the time. I said, Honey, I'm going to quit my job to become a full time land investor. And she said absolutely not. So I said okay, okay. So it took 18 months for land investing income to exceed the investment banking income, and then I quit. And I've been doing it full time ever since. I'm actually up to now over 6000 transactions. Since last time. We spoke and it's the Atlanta market is still booming. It's a it's just a great time to be an investor. Yeah,
Mike Stohler
and everybody if you want to also go back and gather some of his knowledge. Look at episode 87. That's how far back we were. And I'm sure I think I'm in the one almost, I don't know 150 Or something like that. I don't even know what this one is. But you know, so you take the land. In your flipper, do you know do you ever hold or is this is something that as soon as you buy it or even before you buy it, you're already looking for the new buyer. There
Mark Podolsky
are times where if I buy some In the path of growth, that I want to hold it. And usually I put that into the trust with instructions to the kids do not sell this land until you get a seven figure offer for the developer. But otherwise, I'd say 99% of the land I buy is meant to make a cash flow. And, you know, we talked about this in the, I'm sure our first podcast but you know, just as a refresher, you know, there's a way to make land cash flow, and we don't have to deal with any of the headaches that a typical landlord has to deal with, with our renter, rehabs, renovations and roads.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, it's Don't even get me started, like my stomach churns every time I hear tenants. Yeah, yeah. Back in the day when I was a landlord. That's why we got into the hotels. I'm like going, all my people, they're just there one night and get out.
Maybe two. But, so talk to us a little bit about that cash flow process, because most people think that, well, you're buying this land and does nothing is just empty. All you do is pay taxes if you can't sell it. And there is no cash flow. So what do you mean that there's actual cash flow? And you know, outside of just maybe just flipping it? Yeah.
Mark Podolsky
So Mike, can we use you as a case study? I just kind of walk the listeners through the model. So where do you live? Scottsdale? Your Scottsdale, you're my backyard. Yeah. Okay, great. So well, I'll assume that you own five acres of raw land in Denver, in Colorado, okay, probably not Denver. But let's say rural Colorado, okay. And you owe $200 in back taxes on that property. So you're really advertising two important things. Number one, you have no emotional attachment to that role. And you're in Scottsdale, Arizona, and the property is in Colorado. And number two, you're financially distressed in some weird way. Because we don't pay for things like our property taxes, we don't value them in the same way. As a result, the county treasurer keeps sending you notices saying, Mike, if you don't pay your property taxes, you're going to lose that property to a tax deed, or tax lien investor. So all I'm going to do is look at comparable sales on your five acre parcel. For the last 12 to 18 months, I'm going to take the lowest comparable sale, let's say it's $10,000 and divide by four. And that would get me what Warren Buffett would call a 3% margin of safety. So I'll send you an actual offer of $2,500. Now you accept it. Why? Because for you $2,500 is better than nothing. In reality, three to 5% of people will accept my quote unquote, top dollar offer. And it which is still a very high percentage. So you can imagine for every 100 offers, I'm getting three to five returned, as accepted. Yeah. And so then we have to go through due diligence or in depth research to confirm. Number one, you still own the property. Remember to that the back taxes are only $20. There's been no breaks in the chain of title, no liens or encumbrances. So I have this large property checklist that I had my team take care of in Jamaica. So we outsource the due diligence to our team. It costs about $11. And they're connected to American Title Company. And they get me all the information that I'm gonna want, as far as the title work is concerned. But they're also going to do the research as far as making my marketing package. So I'm gonna get aerial maps and plat maps and satellite maps. And just the whole lay of the land, the GPS coordinates for my next buyer. So if we assume everything checks out, I'm gonna buy that property for $2,500. But I'm going to flip it, I'm going to sell it in three days or less. And I'm going to make a cash flow. So all I'm going to ask for is a $2,500 down payment. And then I'm making a car payment, let's say 249 a month at 9% interest the next 84 months. So the pricing is irresistible, and they get a car payment. I get my money out on the down payment. And now I'm getting to 49 a month at 9% interest at four months without having to deal with any renters, rehabs, renovations, roads, and because of that deal with a tenant. I'm exempt from Dodd Frank RESPA unsafe act owners real estate legislation. So it's a simple game. Can we create enough passive income with these land notes where it exceeds our fixed expenses? And now we're working because we want To not because we have to. Yeah,
Mike Stohler
that's very smart. And you know, if they stop paying you do it again with the same land, you just take it back.
Mark Podolsky
Yeah, I mean, we use a land contract. So there's no cost for closure. So if they stop paying, which is great, so they just lowered our cost basis. So now, instead, my cost is based as being $25. Maybe it's $1,500. And I resell it again, at the same price, and quickly get my capital recovery, and extend out my ROI. Yeah,
Mike Stohler
and that's fantastic. You never want to take advantage of hardships. But man, I love it. When I get things back. I'm like, Oh, I get to do it all over again. And, you know, another down payment and get another, you know, percentage, and maybe the interest rates a little bit higher this time. And hey, I'll do it as many times as someone lets me, right.
Mark Podolsky
Yeah, absolutely. You can be flexible with market conditions. So maybe that maybe the market is hotter, and you can raise your price. Maybe it's cooled down? Well, okay, but my cost basis is lower. So it's not going to be too, too much angst to lower the price.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's extremely smart. I didn't even think about doing that. You know, we do that with the renter owns and the lease to owns and things like that with single family. But I don't have to you don't have to go in and put another $10,000 to fix what they destroyed when you take it back. Well, what is one of the what's one of the things you really have to worry about that you've seen? When buying land? Is it water rights? Or is it the ownership chain? What are some of the, the the cautionary tales that you can tell us?
Mark Podolsky
You know, in my niche, there's very few cautionary tales, simply because we're we're avoiding areas that have what I would call a Superfund site. So you know, that have environmental issues where if you buy it, then you're liable for millions of dollars worth of cleanup. Now, you can go to a website like epa.gov Avoid Superfund sites. But when we're buying, we're looking at the Southwest. A little bit the Midwest, right, but we're avoiding like, you know, industrial areas in the Midwest, more rural areas. California and Florida, a little bit in northwest. So these are areas that have a tremendous amount of inexpensive. Raul Raul end, and it's untouched. And so, to me, given that niche, I think the biggest risk is simply overpaying. And then part of that overpaying is not doing your due diligence and checking back taxes, or checking if there's a property's owner Association. Are there any liens with that? And so, if you just do some basic due diligence, it's really hard to get burned in, in the land business.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, you know, I think one of the things, you're here in Arizona, also that I was thinking, wow, that's something you have to worry about with land. Is our governor just came up and said, You can't build any more homes. Because maybe the water, you know, so you have to really look at okay, you know, what, what county is that? You know, is that something I don't know if you're still buying here in Arizona or not. But that's just another thing that often you have to worry about is is the state's different regulations of these just impose? Yeah,
Mark Podolsky
absolutely. And so, in the areas that I buy, I'm going to avoid, you know, the bigger cities, they're going to get to have those restrictions. But, you know, say in a rural county in Arizona, it might be, you know, very expensive to dig a well, it might not be worth it. And so in those situations, you'd have to just bring in water and have a water storage tank. And for people that are using it recreationally that's good enough.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, that's true or or you sell to some ranchers and just a free range or something like that, you know? Yeah, absolutely.
Mark Podolsky
What are some of the bad never been stuck with a piece of raw land? They all sell? Yeah. See
Mike Stohler
what you know, God's not making any more of it. Right. So it's, yeah, you know, and that's the great thing about land. What are some of the other ways that you can invest raw land?
Mark Podolsky
So, some other ways to invest in raw land is as far as you know, you can, you can be creative with it. So for example, you can buy a piece of raw land, and you could do say a partnership with someone who's a tiny home manufacturer, or perhaps you want to do something like a hipcamp which is be like an Arab a&b for camping, you could certainly create something on your land, perhaps you could, you know, make a, like a motor cross track or a paintball type of thing. So there's all different types of ways to monetize raw land. And it just depends on on you and your level of involvement in it. I'm, I'm ambitiously lazy. So really, I've got this business, you know, 95%, automated with software, inexpensive virtual assistants. And in that way, it's I just make it as simple as possible. Yeah. And well,
Mike Stohler
yeah, that's me. I mean, I don't I'd rather golf, you know, I don't want to do anything I want to hire people have the software. And then I come in once a month and talk, you talked a little bit about automation and things like that. And we talked about that, in our previous podcasts, anything new, any other type of automation that's out there that you're using? Yeah.
Mark Podolsky
I'm still using my tour, my my two basic core tools, which is lb, LG past.com, and geek pay.io. And you can check it out the land geek.com forward slash resources. Those two tools, those are my two main tools, I would say as far as operating day to day, you know, air table is pretty cool. Zapier again is, you know, really great. I think that as far as marketing, if you're not using chat, GPT you're, you're working way too hard. So I would say that those, those are some pretty cool tools. A follow up boss is also a nice tool as well, for following up with your, your prospects.
Mike Stohler
Oh, there you go. See, there's there's a software for everything. And it's, it's just, it's crazy. Pretty soon that we're not going to need employees, we just kind of have some but don't. And it's it's,
Mark Podolsky
you know, it could be? I mean, I've heard Kevin Kelly say, oh, you know, AI is like an intern right now, you wouldn't want to ship their work, and you're just gonna have people work with the either to become more productive. I hope he's right. I hope it doesn't evolve to the point where the human being isn't needed. But you could be right. I mean, I could see it, especially if it's for some, some jobs
Mike Stohler
with some jobs. Yeah, cuz it shut up. And we're a long way away from that. And there's been some case studies where people just said that they're an expert, they hadn't checked GPT or one of those AIS, right? Something. And a fourth of it was didn't even exist, the AI just made stuff up.
Mark Podolsky
Yeah. And that's, that's the problem is it doesn't say, I don't know.
Mike Stohler
That's just crazy. So where do you find buyers? Before we get into what you do and things like that, you know, let's just kind of dig into where do you find the land? And how do you find it? And then do you just have a database of someone starting out, then? How do you have all of a sudden put it on the market?
Mark Podolsky
Yeah, so I'm gonna make it really easy, and break it down. So the way that we look for a good market is we look for a good market, because there's other land investors there. So I might go to a site like lands of america.com, or land moto.com, or land and farm.com and start looking at where are people buying raw land? And just thought if Mike stohler can buy land there, why can't I? And so think about it, like a fishing trip. So there's 10 boats that are on one side of the lake, and they're all catching fish. And then on the other side of the lake, there's two boats, they're not catching any fish. And you think, Oh, well, I'll go to where there's less competition. I go, there's like two boats and started fishing. But they're not catching anything. They're in the wrong area. So I'd rather be the 11th boat and get my fair share of the fish.
Mike Stohler
That's it's interesting, because you get the different perspectives. People are like, Well, no, you need to find the up and coming. right where you're sitting, there's like, nope, let's just get in what's already hot. And it's kind of like you're here in Arizona is one of my hotels isn't Castle grand. Yeah. So man, if I had bought all that land down the castle grand 10 years ago and held on to it, you don't have because it's just it's going to be south Phoenix here pretty soon. So yeah, I think that's kind of one of those where Back in 2016 2017, people weren't even kind of looking at that area. So what do you think about that? Like, do you just go? Well, now Casa Grande is hot, and I'm using this, this is a place in Arizona that's up and coming, you know, saying,
Mark Podolsky
a professional investor, like you who's sophisticated, that's, that's a viable strategy. So when I'm looking at markets, I might be looking for something up and coming, because then I can test it, I have the capital to test it. And if I lose, okay, it's not gonna be the end of the world. But for someone who's just starting out, you want to know definitively, this is a good market, and I can get deals. And then once you start getting some confidence and your reps on your about, and some passive income going, sure, let's branch out. And you can certainly experiment in different markets.
Mike Stohler
Now, how do you find your buyer.
Mark Podolsky
So the buyer, we're going to do marketing, because let's face it, nobody wakes up and thinks themselves by likes a rock band today. So you're going to have to do different marketing channels. My number one marketing channel is the neighbor. So think about it, they already own land out there. And so I can send out neighbor letters saying, Hey, here's your opportunity to protect your privacy, protect your views, know your neighbor. Now, if the neighbors pass, I might go to like my buyers list, which would be another great, easy resource. But if you don't have a buyers list, then start looking at big platforms. Something like a Craigslist, it's the 15th most trafficked website, United States, and it's free to list or you could go to the Facebook, buy sell groups in the marketplace, you can then go to places like land moto.com, or land and farm calm or lands of america.com, land flip.com, land hub.com, land sixty.com These are these are platforms where people buy and sell raw land. And so just by getting on those platforms, you're going to get leads, and then you engage with them and and you make it irresistible with your pricing. So they should sell fairly quickly.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, that's That's fascinating. I'm you're naming off all these them like, wow, I mean, I that's not LoopNet at all. Yeah, yeah. The ones that we're all used to. Yeah. So you know, everybody, go back, rewind 10 seconds, right, all those those websites down. So let's talk about the land geek and everyone it gives Mark Podolski the land geek.com Talk to us a little bit about what you do on your website.
Mark Podolsky
Yeah, so the land geek is different in the sense that, like, I've been buying and selling raw land forever. And really, it's been very good to my family and meeting, and I love it. But no one has ever bought a piece of raw land for me, has ever said to be mark, you changed my life with this Ram lithrone rappers they liked it. Right, but it was not life changing. And so for me, to help people solve not just their money problems, but their time problems by teaching them how to create a passive income, where it exceeds their fixed expenses. And then they can work when they want, where they want with whom they want, and become totally free. That has been the most gratifying thing that I've done professionally, where the Rancic I really think that I can, I mean, I've done it where you know, people retire their spouse, they get out of a job, they hate the replace their income. And once they are able to solve not just their time problems, their money problems, they can move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and the self actualization and really discover their greatest purpose in life. And so for me, that's, that's my calling is is helping people do that. So
Mike Stohler
you're educating people on the land geek.com And what is in the lane geek or the lesson summaries? Are you going through different courses? You know what, when someone signs up and says you know, I'm looking at the land geek.com Right now says start here, learn with us. Your Podcast, what type of learning experiences on there? Yeah,
Mark Podolsky
so there is a do it yourself learning experience of videos, there is a done with you learning experience, which is flight school, and then there is one on one coaching for people that really want to get to that professional level of land investing. And then for accredited investors. There is the easy button. There is done for you
Mike Stohler
Go and talk just a little bit about that. I'm an accredited investor. I'm like going, I'm still I still have a W two. And I'm like, I don't I don't have time for this stuff. But
Mark Podolsky
yeah, I mean, you know, I can't publicly talk about it. Okay, but you can certainly if you're accredited investor, you can certainly reach out to me. And I'll walk you through that model.
Mike Stohler
There you go. And for everyone, what that means is he has something out there, whether it's fun syndications, or helping with that. All right, Mark, you know, let's get into, you know, I've been on your site, there's, you have all this plethora of information, all these resources for everyone. Walk us through when someone goes into, or onto your website? What are they looking at? And how can they kind of navigate through your tools?
Mark Podolsky
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, if they go to the land geek.com, it's a really great place, let's just start, because they can opt in to our free wholesaling course, how to double your money, three days or less, they can look at training options, and just book a call, and see which one is going to be best for them considering their capital under time. And I actually have a link here, it's not on the website, to get our, our book for free, dirt rich. And you know, you know, I say it's free, we got to pay for the shipping, but the book is free. And to do that, as well. So I think those are all really good places to start. Because you want to make sure that the business really resonates with you. And just because I love it doesn't mean you'll love it. And so I think that's really the whole purpose of the website is give you as much information as you can digest without feeling overwhelmed. And you can say, Yeah, this, this resonates with me, or it doesn't.
Mike Stohler
And let's kind of recap how someone can work with you on the different ways that they can either invest or learn, you know, there's different aspects. And let's kind of recap about concerning what it is what kind of value add in how they can not just learn but also kind of invest in, you know, with you and talk to us a little bit about what it is you do on that side. Yeah, I
Mark Podolsky
mean, you know, I want to help everyone along the economic spectrum, everybody solve, they're not just their money problems, but also their time problems. So if you have more time than money, you can go in, I would start with like our do it yourself, course, or free course, right? And then you've got the time to just put it together. If you've got more money than time, but you don't have a ton of money. Let's say you've got a job in an income you want to replace, and you've got some resources to shortcut it or smart cut it, then you might want to look at talking to our team about flight school. And if you are an accredited investor, and you've got way more money than time, then you want to just talk with me directly. And, you know, email me mark at the lanky.com and use the subject line done for you. And you have to be an accredited investor. You know, you and I can we can discuss it.
Mike Stohler
Yeah, and you know, everybody, that's a great way if, if you do have money, I know a lot of our listeners, you work, you make a lot of money. But you work a lot of hours, you want to get into this. And that is the best way, let the expert let Mark, do the work for you learn how he does it while he you're being a limited partner. And you know, that's how a lot of future general partners got their start is learning from a mentor and someone like Mark, Mark, it has been a pleasure. Now how can people find you outside of the land geek.com.
Mark Podolsky
So I'm really googly. If you just use Google the land geek or mark Podolski. You'll find me everywhere. And
Mike Stohler
also ladies, Jeremy is on LinkedIn. That's where we're connected. Mark, it's been a pleasure. And it's always a pleasure to have you on you know, however many times because we just learned so much more about the different types of investing in land. Everyone's just thought just like why just buying land and just sits there and nothing happens. And it's a little more involved in that and I appreciate the insight and the knowledge. Have a wonderful evening.
Thanks for tuning in to the Richard geek podcast, where we're helping others find creative ways to build wealth and financial freedom for today's show notes, including all the links and resources From our show, and more information about our guests, visit us at www. V. Richard geek.com/podcast. And don't forget to jump over to Apple podcasts, Google Play Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts and hit the subscribe button. Share with others who could benefit from listening and leave a rating and review to get the podcast in front of your eyes. I appreciate you and thanks for listening
ABOUT JIM SHEILS
Mark J. Podolsky (AKA The Land Geek) is widely considered the country’s most trusted and foremost authority on buying and selling raw, undeveloped land within the United States. For almost two decades, Mark has been actively investing in real estate and raw land, and has completed over 5,000 unique transactions.
Mark’s company, Frontier Equity Properties, LLC, is an A+ rated BBB real estate company. Mark has achieved this level of success largely due to his core business philosophy – “Happy Customers Guaranteed.”